Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Just when I think we're good..

First of all, I apologize in advance at this post.  I wish I had better news to report, but I don't. We really suck at ttwd, really, and it's even worse than I thought.  

We were just talking about really getting it started again. That's what I wanted. I wanted it back 100% and I was getting the feeling that maybe he did too. We talked about it for a while, chatted a little back and forth via text while he was at work.  Texting has always been our best form of communication.  Our evenings are so busy and even though he's really busy at work, he can usually send me a text back and forth throughout the day and we can't lose track of what we're talking about when it's on the screen. 

The other night we actually had a nice session, too.  I could've .. or maybe should've told him to go a little more. I was actually craving his hand, but he just used the hairbrush.  It was really, really good for both of us.  While he still didn't say much, it felt good to be in that position again.  *really good*

Then comes yesterday.  

And my whole world is completely fucked upside down.  I've seen your posts on 'what do you do when he messes up' and the like, but I honestly never read them.  I'm always quite limited on time when I get on blogger, especially with the last few months, and I have no advice on that situation, so I didn't read them.  Stupid me.  

Of course our relationship isn't perfect.  But we were to such a good place.  We've barely bickered over the past few months.  We've done extremely well overall since we began ttwd.  I know I've mentioned we were on the verge of divorce in the past.  It was probably more than just on the verge.  Short of seeing a lawyer, it was over.  It was not good, it was worse than bad.  I've always equated ttwd to saving us.  

It took a lot, as I think it does for most women who choose to live this lifestyle.  You give up a lot.  I was probably not as good as it as I wanted to be, but that's neither here nor there.  I brought it to the table.  I wanted to save us.  I did the love dare.  All of it.  I all but begged him to renew vows with me, but he didn't get it.  

I have one very large regret.  It happened about 4 years ago. Most people always say they have no regrets because they wouldn't be where they are today without it.  That's probably true for us too and I wouldn't change what we have at all, but this regret is just so major it's even hard to type right now.  I hate that I had it happen.  I will slip to an panic attack quite easily over it and that's not something I've told anyone.  Not even FM, I just try to get through it, push it down, and move on.  

FM has proceeded with forgiveness, which I will admit I'm not even sure I could've done if the situation would have been in reverse.  Nothing anyone can say can make me feel worse about what happened.  Nothing.  I have the deepest level of pain and regret, it's a torment I would never wish on anyone.  But I go on.  I focus on us and where we are now.. or where we were to get past it.  I remember that he loves me, that he forgives me, and that I am fine.  I repeat it to myself when the panic comes.  It's ... Anyway.  

Yesterday.  He has an item that he loves, of course fire related, and he's been using it since he got it.  Loves it.  Unfortunately it was ruined yesterday and they're not easily found in our area.  I immediately got on my phone and found it on amazon and another fire site.  I figured out which shipping was cheaper and went to pay for it.  I needed his card out of his wallet, mine isn't working for shipping things for some reason, I tried to be secretive and just pay for it.  Couldn't find his wallet.. went to his car, looked in his bag, and found chewing tobacco.  

Maybe it's not that big of a deal and maybe some of your husbands do it.  I can't stand it.  It makes me so disgusted and we had an argument about it before.  Unfortunately it was during the bad point in our relationship.  However, he promised to not do that anymore.  When we met, he was a smoker.  I thought that I had asked him to quit as a wedding present to me, but he says it was before #1 was born.  Either way, it's been 8 years or 9 years ago, but he did quit.  He just smokes occasionally, which is really fine with me.  

I have issues when people are addicted to things.  I just can't make my brain understand it.  I'm sure he probably is addicted, but that just makes it worse.  I can't understand why you would ever start using chewing tobacco and the spitting and carrying a cup around, ew.  I can't think of many things that are more disgusting than that.  

I know it sounds stupid.  I realize it will probably seem like a non-issue. But he promised.  I confront him about it and my hands are shaking I'm so upset about it.  Then I realize, what if he's been doing it since he promised me he wouldn't? 

He has.  For almost 4 years.  FOUR YEARS he's been hiding this from me.  

We never really kiss.  When we were dating, that's all we'd do.  Then it stopped.  We never make out, we rarely kiss.  I mean we can go weeks.  We will have sex with no kissing.  Happens all the time.  

Now I wonder if it's because he was using that disgusting stuff.  He says I made no effort to kiss him, but I don't think that's true.  I feel like he has chosen that over me.  

So i'm already distraught over this.  I'm disgusted from him even doing, hurt that it's been going on for as long as it has.  I told him I'm not okay with it, if he gets sick from it I'm leaving. That's something you bring on yourself. We argue a little.... and he throws the grenade.  At least I'm not hiding things like you were.. and says a few other things referring to the regret I have.  

It felt like an arrow shot straight through me.  I was paralyzed and panic set it.  I can't even explain.  I just stood there.  Feel better? I asked... he didn't respond.  
We didn't speak the rest of the evening.. until I brought him pillows to sleep on the couch.  I couldn't sleep in the bed with him.  He called me a name as I shut the door. 

I opened it back and we argued more.  He said more mean things about what happened a long time ago and I was stunned.  He even said things that I've never said happened.  I started to respond and he walked out of the room.  That hurt even more.  

I wanted to tell him there's no way possible to make me feel worse than I do, but I couldn't.  I told him to go to the bed. I couldn't sleep anyway, but he refused.  He laid on the couch and I walked to the bedroom with tears just streaming and he said nothing.  I shut the door and couldn't breathe.  I don't even know how loud I was trying to get air in my lungs, I kept thinking he might come, but deep down I knew he wouldn't.  He never does.  He never chases, never comes after me when we have a big argument.  It's been a very long time, but he never has in all of our years.  

I finally got into our bed and I don't know if I passed out or fell asleep, but I woke up around 3 and fell back asleep.  I slept through my gym alarm and woke up around 8:30.  

I texted him everything I'd wanted to say. I told him I didn't want to start a conversation, but I just had some things I wanted to say.  He did respond and apologized, but said that he thought I was blowing things out of proportion.  A while later I explained, but he just said he was busy and hasn't been able to respond yet.  

I don't know what time he will be home.  I don't know how this evening will go.  I just know that a lot of issues have been brought to the surface and won't easily be forgotten.  I know I have a lot of issues with the beginning of our marriage, then the regrets, and now this.  He has issues, obviously, but I don't know.  

I don't know how to end this either.. If you've stuck with it, thanks.  Feel free to comment anything.  Even if you think it's all stupid, lol, I'm fine with it.  I know it sounds stupid, but it's just not to me.  =/ 


  1. Dragon lied to me about smoking for several years. A firefighter I trusted told me the truth. It hurt. Things happened after that to break trust even more. It is hard but it is possible to get past this if that is what you want to do. Hugs. I wish I could make this better.

  2. Please know that I am sending you lots of hugs and prayers. There is no easy answer and there is no advice I can even begin to think of. Your fights sound a lot like ours, even marriage counseling didn't help. Pure stubbornness and pride made us stick together. Whenever we get into a fight, it seems like we go back to the old way. I hope and pray that you both will find the answers. And even though I wrote a post about when the HoH messes up and suggested the Love Dare book, I don't think that I have any of the answers, they were just suggestions from me, one who cares.

    1. Thanks Blondie. I've done the Love Dare. It helped us, too. He even mentioned in the first week how he could tell something was different but he didn't know what. He didn't know I was doing it. It's kind of a sore spot because he started it and didn't finish :(
      We haven't had a fight like this in so long, it's like foreign.

  3. I have no words of wisdom or help......just HUGS...i know how bad you are hurting.
    hugs abby

  4. My heart goes out to you and all I can say is now that everything is out on the table, discuss it, let it go and move forward if you can. What's done is done and if you don't let go, it will bring you both under.

  5. I think we are our own worst enemies Elle. I think sometimes we refuse to forgive ourselves for mistakes we have made and then see those mistakes in others even if they are not there. Maybe he was hiding this chewing thing from you for a long time- maybe your hurt from it stemmed from the hurt you feel you caused 4 years ago. Maybe he felt he could hide this from you because of whatever happened in the past- he rationalized it that way.

    To forgive ( you/him) is one thing, to forget is an entirely different thing. There are no easy solutions. No skip ahead 5 spaces because you played the Dd card. Things from the past always seem to bubble up if they haven't been dealt with in a way that has satisfied both of you.

    I have no advice other than to forgive yourself and try not to see your past in his actions. You will both have to talk I suppose on how you both feel about how the other reacted, and if you think the past played a part in this present emotionally.

    I am with Blondie, many of us are together because we are too darn stubborn to not be. Yes we love each other, but some days that is a choice more than an emotional reaction.

    Good luck to you

    1. Thanks willie. I always appreciate your views. I don't think that's what it is, but I guess I need to do some soul searching to see. I didn't equate the two at all until he brought it up. :(
      I don't honestly think forgiveness will come from me (for myself). I don't forgive myself and I don't think I ever will.

  6. Elle I am writing this to give you his perspective as it sounds as if you had an affair or the very least a severe breach of trust. If you did have an affair he may still be hurting from it, it maybe he struck out at you because of your nagging about his chewing tobacco reminded him of how you were behaving previously during your affair. Probably the same attitude. There is a saying. you remember some of what you hear, you remember more of what you seen, and you always remember how someone made you feel. Feelings are very hard to forget, they are painful. It could also be that he simply hid the chewing tobacco because he could not kick the habit and didn't want to be ashamed of this weakness(it's a man thing). Either way you are calling him out for his imperfections while you seem to be forgetting about your own very serious imperfections. It sounds as if he maybe struggling in the relationship because of the affair. You have to understand he maybe still dealing with it even if he says he isn't(it's a man thing again). In the second half of your blog you write intently about yourself and your wants and needs and your feelings and yet you have very little concern for your husband and his hurts, needs, wants, and desires. Isn't this what a submissive is supposed to be concerned about, you seem to be about all yourself and your insecurities. I have no doubt you deeply regret what happened, but your deep regret is doing nothing to support your husband or showing your submissiveness to him. Again if you did have an affair I can assure you that it is not something that can be forgotten that easily, it takes along time and simply living a TTWD lifestyle will do very little to restore trust especially if it is all about you. Restoring trust is very difficult if not almost impossible and all it takes is one little slip to tear down all that was rebuilt. If you did not have an affair than I apologize for being wrong, but this is most likely the underlying issue and not TTWD or chewing tobacco. I can speak about these issues because I was in your husbands shoes 4 years ago and I can tell you it is a rough road, very rough.

    1. Your response didn't show up as a reply. I'm using my phone currently and it's not blogger compatible.

  7. Well, first of all, thanks for your perspective. However, I have more than one issue with it.
    1. I was not nagging. I'm actually somewhat offended by that term. I've never been a "nagging" person and I certainly wasn't nagging when I found what he's been hiding for 4 years. I barely said anything about it, until I asked him how long it had been happening and he responded with the entire time. He was going to lie, but he knew I can see it when he lies.
    2. No affair. Breech of trust, sure. And I'm sure he does feel badly about it, but so do I. It wasn't - I don't need to get into it. You don't have all of the info to make any assumption about that time period in our life. I am sure his feelings are brought back because he equates it with the hiding that he's done, but it's in no way even close to what I feel.
    3. I'm not a submissive. He's not a dominant. We aren't even in a ttwd relationship right now. Not because of me, I guess I need to say since your response is only geared toward everything you think I've done.
    4. I even went up to skim my post- nowhere do I talk about my needs and wants, so I'm not sure where you got that. It seems like you're making me out to be a very selfish person and if you knew me, you'd know that's not the case whatsoever. I'm always concerned with him. I want him to talk to me more, but he doesn't. And let's not forget the actual issue, which is HIM hiding something from me for 4 years. He could've told me about it anytime, but he chose not to. We have had an excellent relationship, or so I thought. So if he has any issues, it's his own fault for not bringing them up. I've all but begged him to talk.
    5. You keep referencing this "affair" and it really bothers me. It doesn't matter what happened, it happened so long ago and I was allegedly forgiven more than once for it. Because I apologized more then once for it. It's not like I'm the only one in the relationship that ever did have any breech of trust. Maybe his weren't as significant as mine, but they're there. In the past. And I don't bring them up every time we have a major argument. (Which generally doesn't happen, just for the record).
    6. It is not all about me.
    7. The issue is hiding the tobacco for 4 years. It's not an underlying issue. He knows how I feel about it. He knows that I despise that more than anything else. Maybe it doesn't make sense to everyone else, and I'm pretty sure I wrote that in my post, but it's true.

  8. Elle,
    Been there, said that, done that, felt that, got the divorce certificate to prove it.

    So, I have some questions for you. I am sorry if they sound harsh (or indeed ridiculous). They are not meant to be harsh and are in no way a judgement of you.

    Your husband is a flawed human being. He enjoys and is addicted to chewing tobacco which is a habit you find disgusting. Are you willing to lose him over this or can you accept him exactly as he is?

    Your husband lies to you to avoid painful confrontations about his tobacco chewing habit. Are you willing to lose him over this or can you accept him and love him exactly as he is?

    Your husband throws out hurtful accusations from your past when he himself feels hurt and under attack about his tobacco chewing habit. Are you willing to lose him over this or can you accept him just exactly as he is?

    Offences two and three flow from offence one. So the bottom line seems to be that your husband will not do what you want him to do. You want him to abandon tobacco chewing. It is reasonable to ask someone you love to try to stop or change a habit. But, having tried, he is either unwilling or unable to abandon this habit. So, is this really an uncrossable line in your relationship with him? You said if he gets sick from this you will leave him. Really? Think hard about that one. Really? Because if it really is, then leave him and stop bluffing.

    If it is not, then give up chasing him about it and accept it, flaws and all. You have nothing to gain by pursuing it because, clearly, nothing you can do or say will change your husband. He will have to want to change these things about himself. He may or may not want to change these behaviours for himself but it will only ever come from within. Can you accept him, even the bad bits of him? Or would you be happier alone?

    DD, ttwd, whatever you call it, often includes a pretence of being able to change behaviours through control, spanking etc. I love twwd. But it doesn't do what it says on the tin. It only works because we want it to work. If some random, aggressive man tried to change who I am by being controlling and by spanking me into submission, I would never give him what he wanted, would never willingly submit. Twwd works for me because I want to submit. My husband, however, doesn't. He hates being controlled. It seems from what you write that your husband doesn't care much for being controlled either.

    I wish you peace with your fireman, Elle. And for the record, and since it seems to have gotten completely lost in all the aftermath, I think what you were trying to do in getting a replacement item for your husband, was a wonderful, lovely thing to do.

    1. I appreciate your comments and I apologize that it took me a while to respond.
      It is not something that makes me want to lose him, but what about him losing me?

      Of course no one is perfect. I didn't enter into our marriage thinking either of us is/was perfect. I know we still aren't and never will be perfect. However, I think that's an excuse. I think people do things and then they want to use the "well, that's me, you have to accept me for who I am." And that just doesn't work for me. It's the same with apologies. I think often people will do something, apologize and think it's fine. It's not. I mean, if you're truly sorry, fine. But I don't always believe it.

      I do not want to lose him. However I will not stand for being lied to or having things hidden from me. I know with all certainty that he wouldn't stand for that either, why should I?

      As with my past mistakes being thrown at me. He didn't like it when I would do that to him in the beginning of our marriage. I learned to 'fight fair,' but now I am supposed to accept that he wants to fight that way? I don't think that's right. No, I don't want to lose him over any of it, but I don't think I should just be expected to accept it.

      I think in our relationship, maybe every relationship, I don't know, it is reasonable to ask someone to change something. Especially something that is damaging to their health. What if I were morbidly obese? Would he not ask me to do something to change it? To become healthier for myself and our children? He hasn't tried to quit. If it's been ongoing for 4 years, there was no attempt to quit. There was just the continuance from day 1. (or whatever day I found it the first time..).

      I did mean that I would leave him if he got sick from it. Maybe that makes me shallow and vain, but I meant it. He will have brought all of that on himself and he chose to continue. I understand it's addition, but people beat addictions every day. It will suck for the first day, week, month, however long. But you keep going because you have the goal of not being addicted. Maybe it would be a daily struggle. I'm certain it will be hard. But I know he can do it. He just doesn't want to. That bothers me the most. That's why if he doesn't quit and gets sick, I will leave. It's not fair. If he quit and got sick eventually, I would stay. But if he continues on this path for forever.. I'm sorry. That's his choice, not mine.

      Thank you for your comment and your outlook. :)

      I just wrote out a big response, went in a million different directions, hated it, and ended up deleting it all.

    2. That last sentence is supposed to be at the top. Crazy blogger.

  9. Hi!
    I'm usually a lurker but wanted to throw in my two cents this time :)
    First and foremost I want you to know my heart goes out to you! Whether you are making this a bigger deal or not it is still hurtful and a struggle to get through. I hope you two get through it quickly!

    As for my advice? I would say to try couple's counseling. It helps with communication and trying to understand one another better! It doesn't sound like you are ready to give up and right now you may just need someone to help you BOTH to communicate how you are feeling.

    Also I want to tell you thank you for sharing and I hope you continue! Even when it's rough stuff like this...most of us won't judge you (shame on those who do) and love to hear about your corner of the world!

    1. Thanks Katie. We talked about couples counseling, I even googled some in our area. Our problem would/will be childcare and getting an appointment we could both make. Unfortunately our parents aren't always available or helpful when it comes to watching the kids. :(
      We talked about it and he was absolutely open to it. I'm sure not sure we can work it out :( (the counseling appointment, not our marriage!!)

  10. Hi Elle,

    I see from the date this was last week, hoping that everything has been worked out and you are in a much happier place. :0) What is it with firemen and chewing tobacco anyway? My brother is a fireman and he started to chew when he joined and had to stop smoking... That rule bothers me too! They can chew but they can't smoke. hmmmm.. I was just getting over the tattoo thing (they all got graduation tattoos after their boot camp was his story) now chewing and spitting ... ICK! I can say he stopped, but not because his wife asked him or bugged him (she did, trust me) but he finally stopped after his dentist showed him the damage already starting in his mouth and then pulled up pictures of other people that had medical issues from chewing... Took him some nasty tasting gum and some nasty mood swings but he did stop. But it took him wanting to stop to do it. (I am going to generalize now, so prepare your self).... MEN! :0)
    I do hate it when fights turn into you did this and that and hurts are brought back that both people thought were gone or moved past... Being human stinks in that we are all flawed and in the heat of the moment when we find our backs up against that verbal wall we strike with what ever words will push us back to safety or even ground. Grrrrrr...
    I can tell from reading your blog that you are deeply in love with your man, so you are worried about him and his health.

    Keep communicating, that is HUGE in any relationship!! :0)

    Hugs and positive thoughts...
    Irish Lucky

    1. Thanks IL!!
      That rule doesn't make sense.
      I told him the dentist thing, but he swears his teeth aren't great because of his MtDew days in college. I tried to explain this doesn't help, but he wasn't hearing it. I am not harping on it, but I'm still working on it!!! :)

      I do love him. More than anything in the world. And I don't want to mold him into something he's not.. :( I hope my readers don't think that.

  11. When we were first married, every time we argued, my husband would say "I would rather not be married than to fight like this." He didn't mean it, but it was a way to change the subject. It was a way to get my mind off of what we were arguing about. Later we ended up in counseling. When I brought that up, our counselor told him that was emotional abuse, and it was not fair to use it. She gave us info on "fair fighting". We didn't follow it so well, but he never again said what he did before, after he was made to realize that was emotional abuse (her telling him the reasons why). One of my rules in our DD is not bringing up things that are passed and forgiven. It is a good rule, in my opinion. I've been married for 36 years, and we have had some very hard times. We came very, very close to divorce. We seldom fight now. I almost lost my husband to illness in 2009, and I just look at things differently because of it. My husband chewed for a while, and I didn't like it. He did it when he was away from me (it's a southern boy thing, I think). I think it was a fitting in with the boys thing too. It took our neighbor dying of cancer of the esophagus, that caused my husband to quit. Our neighbor told him that his cancer was due to chewing all his life. (He was in his 70s). Whatever reason it was, I was glad, so I understand your dislike. Maybe if you talk to him about the health issues, he will see it differently. Maybe he won't, but choose your battles. When I was told that my husband would probably not make it through the night, I was devastated. I was devastated because I felt I couldn't go on without him, but also devastated because I remembered all the stupid things that we let get in the way of true happiness. I felt like I wasn't the wife he had hoped for when we married. I also felt like I had let him know that he wasn't the husband I had wished for. At that moment, I prayed to God that I would take him anyway He would let me have him, just please let me keep him. Now, I just can't see the faults like I did before. I look at him, and I thank God. Live as if there is no tomorrow to share. Love each other even though things are not just like you expected. We accept our friends even though we don't agree with everything they do, but we just can't seem to do it with our spouse. Talk to him like a friend. Tell him that you worry about his health, and how you just can't see your life without him. Tell him that you already struggle with the guilt of the past, and how can you forgive yourself, if he keeps reminding you. Use I and not you. Forgive me if I said anything wrong, I only tell my own experience. I too think you are very sweet for trying to help your husband replace something that he loves. I wish you God's blessing on your marriage. I am going to stop and say a prayer for you both. God bless you and all you love, -Belle L.

    1. Thank you Belle :)

      It is always in the back of my mind that something could happen any minute of the day that he (well, anyone in my family) could be taken away. I was raised with that. Sometimes I appreciate it, sometimes I don't lol.